(JB): Until recent years, you didn’t even know who Leni Riefenstahl was. Why would you undertake a tribute to her (or is it a tribute?), such as “The Riefenstahl Project” (TRP)?
(RG): “Acknowledgment” is more accurate. Tribute sounds like a celebration, this work is not that.
Before TRP, I had worked on several other projects, like “Definitions” with the straight jackets, some video work and other portrait series. I have many creative ideas- but limited means. I was discussing this with a pro photographer friend of mine who claimed I had developed a more mature style he thought was worth nurturing.
He mentioned, “you know, you shoot like Riefenstahl”.
When I asked who Riefenstahl was he was amazed – I guess because my work looked like it did, yet I had never heard of her – I think before that moment he may have thought I was trying to emulate her.
The more I discovered about her, the more disturbed and intrigued I became, specifically about what her life was about, what her work meant to the Nazi party and the world at large, and how I felt about those issues.
(JB): You may respect her art, but don’t you know how difficult she is, as a confused, and confuse-able, icon?
(RG): I struggled with the fact she was a unique talent – although she had help in many ways – but also that she was arguably instrumental in promoting Naziism, given her ability to seize on a certain classical beauty that much of the world regards as ideal, separate from the politics. Hitler knew her vision would be beneficial if aligned to his agenda, and unfortunately for her, she willingly let it happen.
I am particularly fascinated by “Olympia”, her coverage of the Berlin Olympics in the 30’s. The movie was banned for a time after the war, but has since won numerous international awards and is recognized as one of the greatest sports documentaries of all time. I watched it in full – and I felt the propaganda was not the focus – but rather that a black American (Jesse Owens) really was the star. ”Olympia” was different from Riefenstahl’s other movies of the Nazi rallies when Hitler was coming to power, and the focus was different.
(JB): When somebody says somebody is a “fascist,” today, what do you think it means? Does it mean the same thing it meant when Leni was shooting “Olympia”? What are the politics of images?
(RG): Any people or government that glorify a particular political stance – or even themselves as a race or culture over another – based simply on the fact that it is their own could be called fascist. My definition is probably broader than most. Sometimes these ideas have a way of insidiously creeping into the public’s way of thinking. At the time, I don’t think people who initially supported Hitler necessarily thought of him as fascist, which frightens me.
“Olympia” was shot years before the war, a couple of years before Hitler was USA’s Time magazine “Man of the Year”, and Riefenstahl was mesmerized by Hitler. When I see what is happening today with terrorism, religious fanaticism – I don’t mean just Islamic extremists, for example, but Christian as well – and the ongoing wars and conflicts, I see a similar thread, which is one reason I wanted to do this project.
(JB): Can any image of the human body – whether it is fat, or beautifully toned – be a-political?
(RG): It depends on the context. I would have to say probably not.
(JB): Riefenstahl always gave ambiguous answers when she was asked about her connections with Hitler. Do you care? Does it make a difference?
(RG): I do care, because it is fairly obvious what the answers really were. She had to distance herself as far as possible because of what happened. She never joined the Nazi party, and sometime during the course of the war refused to make any more movies for them, but she bought into it in the beginning, as many did. Having said this, if I can separate her work, I have respect for it. It is not an easy thing for me to do, and I don’t expect it to be easy, or even possible, for everyone who view’s TRP.
(JB): Your images, like those of Bruce Weber and Herb Ritts, pay a sort of homage to Leni Riefenstahl. What’s different about your work?
(RG): After working several years as a medical image interpreter, one morning I found myself facing another day, sitting in front of a computer, often alone in a dark room, describing in detail “what’s wrong with the picture”.
I needed balance. I wanted to capture images that spoke to me about “what is right”.
People have described me as a “sensualist”, and I guess I see that. Weber and Ritts have more of a classic feel, and Weber in particular has an esthetic that obviously works well within the context of the American and European fashion vernacular. I would like to believe my work is more personal regarding the subject – although they certainly have shot that way too, depending on the task at hand. Ritts was a master with lighting and contrast as well.
Perhaps I am more of a minimalist. My work tends to be more narrative and restricted at the same time – it’s more about a facial expression and moment – the soul of the moment.
(JB): Why, ultimately, did you do this show? Why was it important for you to present it in newsprint?
(RG): TRP serves as a visual metaphor and is a reference to “Olympia”. I recreated some of the famous cinema stills from the movie, but they are deliberately tweaked. I specifically chose a German model, as well as two Americans of different lineage. In addition, newsprint was a primary means of communication in the 30’s. It will oxidize and age, and adds to the visual authenticity of the work and a sense of historical documentation.
In total, the work serves a reminder of the power of images, how they can be used to persuade and captivate, and that the human struggle – whether in the context of athletic games or some other way – can be beautiful, but as in Riefenstahl’s case, may also cloak an undertone of a fascist or subversive message.
The sections: Genesis, Conflict, Zenith and Reflection parallel the games, Riefenstahl’s life, and my personal struggle in developing this work. Riefenstahl always maintained her focus was the art, and she was acquitted for war crimes. Before I can judge, or anyone can, I think we must look inward. Jenny Holzer said: “Protect me from what I want.” I say: ”Protect me from what I am.”
John Bridges is the creator of the “Gentlemanners” series of books for men.
(RG): “Acknowledgment” is more accurate. Tribute sounds like a celebration, this work is not that.
Before TRP, I had worked on several other projects, like “Definitions” with the straight jackets, some video work and other portrait series. I have many creative ideas- but limited means. I was discussing this with a pro photographer friend of mine who claimed I had developed a more mature style he thought was worth nurturing.
He mentioned, “you know, you shoot like Riefenstahl”.
When I asked who Riefenstahl was he was amazed – I guess because my work looked like it did, yet I had never heard of her – I think before that moment he may have thought I was trying to emulate her.
The more I discovered about her, the more disturbed and intrigued I became, specifically about what her life was about, what her work meant to the Nazi party and the world at large, and how I felt about those issues.
(JB): You may respect her art, but don’t you know how difficult she is, as a confused, and confuse-able, icon?
(RG): I struggled with the fact she was a unique talent – although she had help in many ways – but also that she was arguably instrumental in promoting Naziism, given her ability to seize on a certain classical beauty that much of the world regards as ideal, separate from the politics. Hitler knew her vision would be beneficial if aligned to his agenda, and unfortunately for her, she willingly let it happen.
I am particularly fascinated by “Olympia”, her coverage of the Berlin Olympics in the 30’s. The movie was banned for a time after the war, but has since won numerous international awards and is recognized as one of the greatest sports documentaries of all time. I watched it in full – and I felt the propaganda was not the focus – but rather that a black American (Jesse Owens) really was the star. ”Olympia” was different from Riefenstahl’s other movies of the Nazi rallies when Hitler was coming to power, and the focus was different.
(JB): When somebody says somebody is a “fascist,” today, what do you think it means? Does it mean the same thing it meant when Leni was shooting “Olympia”? What are the politics of images?
(RG): Any people or government that glorify a particular political stance – or even themselves as a race or culture over another – based simply on the fact that it is their own could be called fascist. My definition is probably broader than most. Sometimes these ideas have a way of insidiously creeping into the public’s way of thinking. At the time, I don’t think people who initially supported Hitler necessarily thought of him as fascist, which frightens me.
“Olympia” was shot years before the war, a couple of years before Hitler was USA’s Time magazine “Man of the Year”, and Riefenstahl was mesmerized by Hitler. When I see what is happening today with terrorism, religious fanaticism – I don’t mean just Islamic extremists, for example, but Christian as well – and the ongoing wars and conflicts, I see a similar thread, which is one reason I wanted to do this project.
(JB): Can any image of the human body – whether it is fat, or beautifully toned – be a-political?
(RG): It depends on the context. I would have to say probably not.
(JB): Riefenstahl always gave ambiguous answers when she was asked about her connections with Hitler. Do you care? Does it make a difference?
(RG): I do care, because it is fairly obvious what the answers really were. She had to distance herself as far as possible because of what happened. She never joined the Nazi party, and sometime during the course of the war refused to make any more movies for them, but she bought into it in the beginning, as many did. Having said this, if I can separate her work, I have respect for it. It is not an easy thing for me to do, and I don’t expect it to be easy, or even possible, for everyone who view’s TRP.
(JB): Your images, like those of Bruce Weber and Herb Ritts, pay a sort of homage to Leni Riefenstahl. What’s different about your work?
(RG): After working several years as a medical image interpreter, one morning I found myself facing another day, sitting in front of a computer, often alone in a dark room, describing in detail “what’s wrong with the picture”.
I needed balance. I wanted to capture images that spoke to me about “what is right”.
People have described me as a “sensualist”, and I guess I see that. Weber and Ritts have more of a classic feel, and Weber in particular has an esthetic that obviously works well within the context of the American and European fashion vernacular. I would like to believe my work is more personal regarding the subject – although they certainly have shot that way too, depending on the task at hand. Ritts was a master with lighting and contrast as well.
Perhaps I am more of a minimalist. My work tends to be more narrative and restricted at the same time – it’s more about a facial expression and moment – the soul of the moment.
(JB): Why, ultimately, did you do this show? Why was it important for you to present it in newsprint?
(RG): TRP serves as a visual metaphor and is a reference to “Olympia”. I recreated some of the famous cinema stills from the movie, but they are deliberately tweaked. I specifically chose a German model, as well as two Americans of different lineage. In addition, newsprint was a primary means of communication in the 30’s. It will oxidize and age, and adds to the visual authenticity of the work and a sense of historical documentation.
In total, the work serves a reminder of the power of images, how they can be used to persuade and captivate, and that the human struggle – whether in the context of athletic games or some other way – can be beautiful, but as in Riefenstahl’s case, may also cloak an undertone of a fascist or subversive message.
The sections: Genesis, Conflict, Zenith and Reflection parallel the games, Riefenstahl’s life, and my personal struggle in developing this work. Riefenstahl always maintained her focus was the art, and she was acquitted for war crimes. Before I can judge, or anyone can, I think we must look inward. Jenny Holzer said: “Protect me from what I want.” I say: ”Protect me from what I am.”
John Bridges is the creator of the “Gentlemanners” series of books for men.